tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16818808.post5786094483258180537..comments2023-10-16T05:20:27.672-05:00Comments on the Contender: Emergent “Seeker Sensitive Fluff”EJhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10885830096757444438noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16818808.post-4658360274413353652007-06-01T10:25:00.000-05:002007-06-01T10:25:00.000-05:00Thanks Cap’n; Two points – the easier first. The ...Thanks Cap’n; <BR/><BR/>Two points – the easier first. The tension that you bring out that you deal with in your church (the fakery of some Christians) is a real issue, no matter what church you go to. <BR/><BR/>One of my points in the article was to say that this vid was an unfair comparison between Christian and Christ-Follower. No matter how you parse it, it is the Christian guy who is being mocked. Now, a guy who wears bumper stickers in his suit coat, who “displays” his offering envelope, and cannot restrain his frustration and disgust with a person (i.e. lacks fruit of the Spirit) does have some issues. But it is as unfair to characterize “old-fashioned” Christians like that as it is to classify every church that has a drum set or guitars for praise team and a pastor who wears khaki’s and a polo shirt by saying something like this: <BR/><BR/><B>“These guys don’t think the Bible is sufficient because they try to “improve” on how to minister the gospel by having rockin’ worship and using movie clips in sermons. They are more concerned with feelings…getting people to have an emotional reaction instead of giving them the gospel and teaching them the scriptures. They want to throw off history and what we’ve learned in the past 2000 years of Christianity in favor of marketing techniques and building a big church. And these guys think that they’re so holy because they don’t wear a suit, they’re above that kind of display. They have no reverence for God based strictly upon how they conduct worship and with the reverence that they gather together…don’t’ you dress up to go to a wedding? Wouldn’t you dress up if you had a meeting with the President? Why not with God“ and on and on and on….</B><BR/><BR/>Of course those statements above do not characterize all churches with rockin’ music or with a pastor who doesn’t “suit up”. And I am sure that there are a lot…a lot…a lot, of more traditional type churches that are so fake because, most likely, many of the congregants are not saved! So is the answer to change everything about how we gather together…or is it to ensure that our church…and those members and leaders are saved and display the joy of the Lord that is not fake. It is as easy to be fake in a “seeker” church as it is to be fake in an “older” style church. It’s not the style, it’s the substance. <BR/><BR/>My disputes are rarely with style. If your substance is on target, there is much leeway with style. But if your substance is off, no amount of stylization will help or make it palatable. (also – the vid was made by an emergent church…)<BR/><BR/>Now the hard part…two, actually. <BR/><BR/>First - Where in the Bible does it imply that we create a church environment for seekers? Church is for those who are saved, primarily. Seeker churches, as I see it, miss the point of church. It is to build up the believer. Do we seek the lost? Yes, but that is not the point of the gathering of the believers…it is what we need to do Monday-Saturday and then bring them to a church. And a reason for the music/layout/etc shouldn’t be to attract and keep seekers…because if someone is staying at church, it should be for the gospel, not for the worship – whether it is with the guitar or a really talented organ player.<BR/><BR/>Second – who said that faith is easy or that we should “make faith easier to obtain”? Faith is a gift from God, not a human virtue or ability (Eph 2:8,9). Jesus told us to take up our cross and follow Him (Matt 10:38;16:24) and that the way to salvation was narrow and that the gate is narrow (Matt 7:13,14). True faith is hard. Is it a gift from God? Yes. Is it a no-brainer when the truth has been revealed to you by the Holy Spirit? Yes. But, is it easy to obtain or easy to continue to do? No! Christ said to Nicodemus (John 3) that no one knows where the Spirit goes or comes from – in other words we cannot get it…it must be given, and we cannot control that. And for the “easiness” of the Christian life (i.e. continuing/living faith) – Romans 7, Galatians 5,6 and other passages talk about the warfare and the striving against the flesh that we must do. “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Php 2:12). <BR/><BR/>I appreciate your desire to wrestle with these issues as well as to be faithful to Christ and His Word. <BR/><BR/>Ps – What are the spiritual qualifications for an “advisor”? Not that titles are the end-all and be-all, but how much does your church (or my church) match the biblical model of leadership and organization as opposed to matching a 20th century Western Corporation or NPO? Food for thought.EJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10885830096757444438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16818808.post-16479260130158763912007-06-01T09:31:00.000-05:002007-06-01T09:31:00.000-05:00I think the point of this video may be missed. I ...I think the point of this video may be missed. I feel that these videos were made to make faith easier to obtain. Lots of people who come to seeker churchs, have been to church and seen "Church Normal" (ie Chirstian Guy). They want something real and deeper. They don't want people who play fake, which I have seen in other churches, but are real people. This is why the Chirst-Follower guy is dressed as himself. <BR/><BR/>The "Christian Guy" is not really whats being mocked. The mocking of the Prideful "Chirstian" is key becuase he is not what real faith is about. He wears his offering evelope where people can see it. He dresses in his suit and tie to show his status. It comes across as, "Look, I am better than you because I am in a suit". The whole point of seeker churches is to dispell the myth that only perfect people can come to church. <BR/><BR/>There is also a difference between the seeker churches, and the Emergent churches. Seeker churches make the church service more casual and upbeat, while being very Bible based.<BR/> Emermergent churchs will have less direction and a general, open theology. <BR/><BR/><BR/>These are all just my views mind you, but I am an Advisor at a seeker church. We are 100% Bible based, and Baptist, but we are dealing with the people that are turned off by this "Chirstian Guy" in the video everyday.Captain Slappyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11479773982257701355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16818808.post-34552548825997424612007-05-23T10:26:00.000-05:002007-05-23T10:26:00.000-05:00Thanks for the quotation and the link, EJ. You're ...Thanks for the quotation and the link, EJ. You're certainly on target with the critique that emergent folk (as with us all) simply replace one "canon" of "rule books" with another that they prefer. <BR/><BR/>Having read several of Peterson's books, in addition to The Message paraphrase, and had some exposure to McLaren and Bell, my sense is that they, like you and I, would desire that the contemporary church had a deeper engagement with the ancient church and the great thinkers of the Church. Folks that you and I would lift up as exemplars of faith--John Calvin probably for us both and, for me at least, John Wesley as well--clearly model that kind of engagement with the great Christians that preceded them in their ministry. <BR/><BR/>Thanks again for the quote.gmwhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03141082618099710161noreply@blogger.com