"Is Roman Catholicism Biblical?"
The short answer is no.
I encourage you to read the following article by John MacArthur. It is called "Is Roman Catholicism Biblical?" and you can find it by clicking here. It briefly engages the problem that Roman Catholicism has with the Bible and what it says about Justification.
He also wrote another article called "Jesus' Perspective on Sola Fide" that likewise is very good. I encourage you to read this one as well. You can find it by clcking here.
36 comments:
Sweetheart,
I enjoyed reading the articles by John MacArthur. I agree with everything that he has to say. That is not say that he is infallible or ever without error, but these two articles are clear with only Biblical evidence to support his claims. I enjoy feeling like I am using my brain for something other than taking care of two little cuties all day. Thanks for all your work.
Steph
Once again... instead of discussing the practice of faith... all you want to do is bash the Catholic church with your rants and raves.. and you use the "Great and wonderful Macarthur" to do it. I read both of those disgusting papers... what a waste of time on my part!
Since you use the great Macarthur all the time.. I think it is only fair that you and your readers truly know the truth about MacArthur. I don't think he is the saint that you think he is or his wack teachings.
Read the excerpts below taken straight from the horses mouth:
In an advertisement in the Christian Booksellers Association trade magazine, Marketplace, The MacArthur Study Bible is described as follows:
"Unlike past 'classics' burdened by outdated theological systems, The MacArthur Study Bible strives to let the systems go, and let the Word of God speak. And day after day, year after year, you can always count on hearing something new."
On the historic, orthodox, creedal view that the Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is immanent and eternal, this new Bible did indeed "let the systems go." The notations on Hebrews 1:5 and 7:3 demolished the historic creedal view that Christ is the Eternal Son of God, hence there is no eternal and immanent Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is not "new," but compared to the view of Bible doctrine expressed in the Creeds, Confessions, and Theological "standards," it is heterodox. In other writings, MacArthur has also expressed the view which makes the Trinity a "nameless" unity, as he believes the "Son" is a "role" assumed by the "second person" in the flesh, which also implies the "Father" is a "role" assumed by the "first person."
MacArthur contends in his Study Bible that "Sonship" refers to Christ in the "role" of "Son" which supposedly began in a "point of time" when He was incarnated via the virgin birth. This birth constituted Him as the "Son." This is sometimes called "incarnational sonship." MacArthur uses the Syriac Pershitta translation on Hebrews 7:3 to bring the reading of the passage more in line with his theory. We view Hebrews 7:3 as one of the strongest Biblical affirmations of the Eternal Sonship of the "Son," and the MacArthur note demolishes this great truth from that passage. (Excerpted from a 7/21/97 e-mail from Bob Ross of Pilgrim Publications.)
In contrast, the Bible teaches the Eternal Sonship of Christ -- that He was the Son in eternity past. To deny that the attribute of eternality is inherent in Sonship (rather than conferred by incarnation), is, in effect, a denial of the "equality" of the "Son" with God -- a very serious heresy!
To make matters worse, MacArthur branded as "heretics" those who held to the historical, orthodox, Biblical view of Eternal Sonship -- he labeled the Biblical view as a "heretical idea" and he associated it with "cultists who deny Christ's deity." Based on his concept of "Sonship," MacArthur specifically denounced the Eternal Sonship of Christ as follows:
"He [Christ] is no 'eternal son' always subservient to God, always less than God, always under God. ... It [Son] is his human title, and we should never get trapped in the heretical idea that Jesus Christ is eternally subservient to God" (Commentary on Hebrews, 1983, pp. 28-29).
In that same Commentary, MacArthur associated Eternal Sonship with "cultists" who imply that eternality of the Son means "inferiority" to God. Also, in his The Sonship of Christ booklet (published by the IFCA), MacArthur so defined and distorted the "eternal generation" of the Son that he felt justified in branding it as being "meaningless and confusing" (p. 9). He alleged that "orthodox teachers" who hold to "eternal generation" "echo an element" of the "false belief" of "cultists who deny Christ's deity." He equated this with the idea that Christ was "created." [Excerpted and/or adapted from a 11/17/97 e-mail from Bob Ross of Pilgrim Publications.]
[12/99 Update: In late-August of 1999, MacArthur released an extensive statement recanting his position of Incarnational Sonship. A key portion of that statement read as follows:
"I want to state publicly that I have abandoned the doctrine of 'incarnational sonship.' Careful study and reflection have brought me to understand that Scripture does indeed present the relationship between God the Father and Christ the Son as an eternal Father-Son relationship. I no longer regard Christ's sonship as a role He assumed in His incarnation."
Sadly, MacArthur's statement gave no indication how widely he planed to publish this doctrinal change, if at all. Moreover, MacArthur showed no remorse or regret or repentance for the many he has misled on this vital doctrine over the years, including, but not limited to, the damage that took place in the IFCA. (It was the same story when MacArthur broke off with Larry Crabb and then Gary Ezzo -- absolutely no repentance for the many thousands led into the clutches of these two psychoheretics.)
Reading the entire August, 1999 statement, MacArthur compared his theological review process to that of Augustine's before his death. But MacArthur's words come off more as a trivialization of a crucial doctrine than genuine remorse for teaching falsely; MacArthur's "repentance" reads more like: "Me and Augustine -- just doing a little theological review before we die." In his statement, MacArthur even said it's no big deal for others to hold to a mere Incarnational Sonship -- NOT "rank heresy" or anything like that -- and still falling within the boundaries of orthodoxy. As if the doctrine of Eternal Sonship is some insignificant gray area that believers have the liberty to accept or reject!
It would have also been helpful if MacArthur had given his followers a little of his thought process in coming to this change in theology to which he had held so adamantly for so many years, in speaking and in writing. Should we now expect a recall of MacArthur's Hebrews Commentary, his 1991 booklet The Sonship of Christ, and The MacArthur Study Bible? Don't hold your breath.]
- After John MacArthur changed his position on the doctrine of the Eternal Sonship of Christ, he wrote a letter in which he explained how he could sign the Independent Fundamental Churches of America (IFCA) doctrinal statement even during all those years when he strongly denied the Eternal Sonship of Christ. These are his words (in a letter to a Pennsylvania pastor dated 9/30/99):
"Frankly, I don't think the breach in the IFCA is merely a matter of the incarnational sonship. That's such an isolated issue. It seems to me that the people who created the rift are, by disposition, divisive. Also, the statement on sonship in the IFCA doctrine is simply that Christ is the eternal Son of God without any explanation. Even people who believe in an incarnational sonship, such as I used to, could affirm the statement that He is the eternal Son of God with qualification."
Pastor George Zeller (Middletown Bible Church, Middletown, CT) makes the following observations concerning MacArthur's statement of recantation:
(1) I know the men MacArthur is referring to, and these men are not divisive. It was never their desire to bring about a division in the IFCA. Their only desire was to defend and uphold the IFCA doctrinal statement and not to broaden its meaning so as to allow for contrary views. Also these men were not the ones who caused the rift. It was MacArthur's "Incarnational Sonship" teachings that triggered the controversy and the whole problem could have been easily solved from the beginning if the IFCA leadership had simply enforced its own doctrinal statement;
(2) The IFCA doctrinal statement simply says "that Christ is the eternal Son of God without any explanation," because we believe exactly what these words mean. We take these words at face value. Such a clear statement of doctrine does not need any explanation. The words mean what they say. MacArthur once taught the following: "The Bible nowhere says that Christ is the eternal Son." This denial of eternal Sonship is also very clear and needs no explanation;
(3) The problem that we have had with MacArthur is his affirmation of our [the IFCA] doctrinal statement "with qualification." -- "I affirm the Christ is the eternal Son of God with the qualification that He did not become the Son of God until Bethlehem." What if someone said, "I affirm the full deity of Christ with the qualification that I don't really believe He is God!" Or, "I affirm the eternal security of the believer with the qualification that those who depart from the faith will be lost and lost forever." Or, "I affirm the Pre-Tribulation rapture of the church with the qualification that I really hold to the Pre-Wrath view." Or, "I believe that Christ died as a Substitute for all mankind with the qualification that He died as a Substitute only for the elect." Or, "I believe that the believer has two natures with the qualification that the believer really only has one nature, the new nature in Christ." If the IFCA allowed for such qualifications, as MacArthur contends, then any person holding to any deviant or heretical view could sign the IFCA statement!
- MacArthur (who is a "member in good standing" of the increasingly neo-evangelical/ecumenical IFCA), when speaking to a gathering of Indiana GARBC churches (also now highly inclusivistic) in January of 1991, commented on his then recent trip to the Soviet Union. While in Russia, MacArthur preached in the "registered" church. Since a registered church is one that has already agreed to compromise the Scriptures by allowing itself to be controlled by an atheistic government, MacArthur has apparently accepted the Communist propaganda concerning "freedom of religion," and in effect, has stabbed the persecuted church in the back (much as Billy Graham did during his trip to Russia in the early-1980s). (See the 6/15/91 Calvary Contender for Georgi Vins' accurate analysis of the Russian "registered" church. Vins had refused to speak in the pulpits of Russia's registered church "where liberals have also spoken," because his conscience would not permit him to do so. Apparently MacArthur's conscience is not as sensitive to error as is Vins'.)
- John MacArthur continues to sign the IFCA International's (formerly Independent Fundamental Churches of America) doctrinal statement, even though he contradicts it in his public tapes and writings. Three examples:
(1) The Two Natures of the Believer -- IFCA Statement: "We believe that every saved person possesses two natures, with provision made for victory of the new nature over the old through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit." MacArthur: "I believe it is a serious misunderstanding to think of the believer as having both an old and new nature ... there is no such thing as an old nature in the believer" (Freedom from Sin: Rom. 6-7, pp. 31-32);
(2) The Extent of the Atonement -- IFCA Statement: "We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross for all mankind as a representative, vicarious, substitutionary sacrifice." MacArthur: "He is the Substitute only for those who believe. ... In the substitutionary sense He bore only the sins of those who ultimately would put their faith in Him" (Tape GC47-36);
(3) The Eternal Sonship of Christ -- IFCA Statement: "We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, became man, without ceasing to be God." MacArthur: "The Bible nowhere speaks of the eternal Sonship of Christ ... only from His incarnation has He been Son. He was not a son until He was born into this world" (MacArthur Commentary Series: Hebrews [1:4-5]). [Recanted 8/99 -- see above.]
Can the IFCA leadership ignore such glaring contradictions? Apparently so. The 6/97 IFCA national convention was held at the Word of Life facilities (NY), with John MacArthur as main speaker! (1/15/97, Calvary Contender). So the issue with MacArthur continues to be not whether one agrees with the IFCA Doctrinal Statement, but the hypocrisy of John MacArthur in signing the IFCA's Statement of Faith, thereby attesting to the doctrines therein, and then teaching what amounts to an outright denial of those very doctrines!
- MacArthur's top assistant at the time (who, you must remember, claimed to "speak with the full authority of John MacArthur" and was an elder at Grace Church) was preaching at a large Midwestern "evangelical" church on 7/25/93. One of his messages was titled "Learn to Discern," in which he lamented the failure of today's spiritual leaders:
"[Where is the] spiritual discernment to successfully evaluate and distinguish the wisdom of the world from the wisdom of God? ... The church is in such a paltry state because they ape the things of the world ... just like the issue of psychology ... [The world] is jumping off the bandwagon of psychology just at the time when the church is running toward it full bore. [Yet] spiritual discernment says that you're able to distinguish between ... that which is right from that which is wrong ... that which is true from that which is false. ... Biblical separation is the process by which you say, 'This is what God says and all others are false, not true.' ... The discernment of evil is a byproduct of learning to identify truth."
One only has to browse around the Grace Church campus and/or listen to tapes or read the various publications emanating from The Master's Fellowship complex of ministries to come to the conclusion that spiritual discernment there is a commodity in extremely short supply. (For example, in MacArthur's 1994 book, The Vanishing Conscience, he begins chapter 3 by quoting favorably from Chuck Colson's acceptance speech for the 1993 "Templeton Progress in Religion Prize," delivered at the Parliament of World Religions in Chicago!) By applying MacArthur's own definition of discernment, MacArthur and staff need to spend a great deal more time learning to identify truth. Perhaps then they will be able to discern what is evil.
Here is a great letter that a young man wrote to Macarthur who of course never answered him. You should read this and compare it to Mac arthurs teachings.
http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/macart.html
Again I have to post a little more on the "great Macarthur".
And this excerpt is from Macarthurs fundamental belief system.. read this and tell me how this can be Christian?
MacArthur believes that there are certain doctrines found in Scripture that are the deciding factor in determining whether a person is a false teacher or not, or in the faith or not (This false teaching is actually very common in Christendom today). In his book, Reckless Faith (copyright 1994), speaking of these fundamentals he says,
They instruct us how to deal with false teachers who have gone astray with regard to the fundamental doctrines of Christianity. (p. 107)
Contrary to any list of "fundamental" doctrines, the Scriptures proclaim,
We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1 John 4:6)
Yet, MacArthur holds onto his own teaching (i.e. the traditions of men, Colossians 2:8) and asserts,
All who call themselves Christian should agree that there is a body of doctrine that is non-negotiable. The articles of faith that make up this constitutional body of truth are the very essence of 'the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints' (Jude 3). These are the real fundamentals of the faith. They are doctrines so indispensable to true Christianity that we ought to break fellowship with those who profess Christianity but who deny them (2 Cor. 6:14-17). (ibid., p. 106-107)
You will search in vain to find such teaching in the Word of God. In fact, just the opposite is taught. Paul says to Timothy, "no other doctrine" (1 Timothy 1:3). That is, any doctrine that is contrary to any Scripture! Jesus put it this way, (making no distinction),
If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; (John 14:23-24)
In 1 Timothy 6:3, Paul says the standard is "wholesome words," "the words of our Lord Jesus Christ," and "the doctrine which accords with godliness," not some man-made list of "essentials" or "fundamentals"! This false teaching of "the fundamentals of the faith" falls by MacArthur's own hand on page 115 of this same book (Reckless Faith).
It is not my purpose here to attempt to give an exhaustive list of fundamental doctrines. To do so would be beyond the scope of this book, and certainly beyond my own abilities as a theologian. As Witsius has written: "To point out the articles necessary to salvation, and precisely determine their number, is a task, if not utterly impossible, at least extremely difficult." [found also in Truth Matters, p. 91, copyright 2004, by John MacArthur]
So, on the one hand MacArthur says there are doctrines that are so essential "we ought to break fellowship with those who profess Christianity but who deny them." Yet, when called to give what all of these important "fundamentals" are, he cannot tell us!
In addition to this folly, MacArthur further declares that it doesn't matter if we know what they all are, even though they are "necessary for salvation." In quoting Witsius, in the context of the above quote (i.e. speaking of "articles necessary to salvation") he writes,
It is of no great importance, besides, to the church at large, to know quite correctly the precise number of fundamental articles. (Reckless Faith, p. 115, Truth Matters, p. 91)
So, these articles are "necessary for salvation" and so important we "ought to break fellowship with those who . . . deny them," yet we cannot know what all of them are, nor does it matter! This is a classic case of hypocritical stupidity, especially when MacArthur goes on and states,
Nothing is more desperately needed in the church right now than a new movement to reemphasize the fundamental articles of the faith. (Reckless Faith, p. 117, Truth Matters, p. 93)
In other words, there is a desperate need to emphasize "fundamental articles," some of which, we do not know what they are, nor do we know how many they be of what we do not know.
Also, in the midst of all this folly, MacArthur writes as well,
We must also remember that serious error can be extremely subtle. (Reckless Faith, p. 117, Truth Matters, p. 93)
Indeed it can be! And so, all who follow this deceit are sitting ducks for subtle error. Since there are fundamental articles that exist, but they (MacArthur and company) do not know what they are, serious error can easily be taught in regards to an unknown fundamental article. Being that they do not know it is a fundamental article, they can easily regard it as a "secondary" issue, not fundamental, and find themselves either believing the lie or allowing others to believe the lie, and thus denying a fundamental article of the faith that is "necessary for salvation."
This is exactly what has happened. The most "fundamental article of the faith" is denied by this "fundamentals" lie.
What does Jesus say is "necessary" for salvation? The answer is found in John 8:31-32.
If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
It is "the truth" that makes us free (i.e. free from sin, John 8:34-36), not some of the truth (i.e. "the fundamentals"). James put it this way,
Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. (James 1:21)
In his teaching on the fundamentals, MacArthur diverts Christians away from a zealous love for the truth (all of the truth), thus leading to the damnation of souls. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 bears witness to this reality. There is a damning delusion that will soon come upon all those who refuse to "receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved." In this same vein, MacArthur's "Fundamentals" doctrine deceitfully denies the words of Christ who said,
Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. (Matthew 4:4; note also Paul's words in 2 Corinthians 10:3-4, "every thought." For further study, see also www.atruechurch.info/unity.html, and www.atruechurch.info/savednot.html)
The Jehovah's Witnesses change the definition of who Christ is, and the Mormons change the definition of who Christ is. MacArthur has done the same thing, but much more deceitfully. He refuses to recant on this teaching (many have confronted him on it). Those who do not love the Truth (i.e. Jesus, John 14:6) think it is no big deal to teach erroneously about the Son of God. What could be a more important subject, but WHO IS CHRIST?! MacArthur does just as the Scripture says men like him would do.
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, (2 Peter 2:1).
John F. MacArthur is the pastor teacher of Grace Community Church, Sun Valley, California. He is one of the most popular Bible expositors and Bible conference speakers in the country, and serves as president of The Master's College and Seminary. Heard daily on the national radio program, Grace to You, MacArthur is the best-selling author of such books as The MacArthur Study Bible, The Gospel According To Jesus, and Faith Works. (back inside dust jacket of MacArthur's book, Successful Christian Parenting, copyright 1998).
To many, John MacArthur is a champion of the faith whose voice is correcting many of the ills of Christianity. To a few (Matthew 7:13-14; Luke 13:23-24), he is a wolf in sheep's clothing (Matthew 7:15) whose "Master" is the Master of deception (Revelation 12:9).
MacArthur's very popularity should be enough for any discerning Christian to be wary. But, sad to say, most people do not understand the context and warning Christ gave in Luke 6:26, nor the present reality of chapters 3 and 4 of 2 Timothy (particularly 3:1-5 and 4:3). Plus, MacArthur's appearance of proclaiming much truth also creates for the minds of men a delusion that is ever so strong. As MacArthur himself rightly revealed about false teachers,
. . . they are dangerous when they tell truth because often they cannot be distinguished from true teachers. The key to being a successful false teacher is to tell as much of the truth as possible. (MacArthur's Bible study guide, Joy And Godliness, p. 17).
And,
The subtlety of false teaching is that it uses the Word of God but misrepresents its teaching. Those who teach something explicitly and overtly anti-biblical, anti-Christ, and anti-God pose no real threat to the Christian church. But subtle teaching that appears to be biblical yet pulls unwary souls away from the faith is a great danger to the church. (MacArthur's Bible study guide, Avoiding Spiritual Counterfeiters, p. 17)
In these two quotes, MacArthur describes himself. One example of his own "subtle teaching that appears to be biblical" is his teaching on "self-worth" (a disguised form of "self-esteem").
I have not been ranting or raving. I simply found a few articles that were along the same topic that has been on here of late. Specifically the doctrine of Justification, and that is why I linked to those articles.
"instead of discussing the practice of faith" I have commented on various issues raised by different Catholic commenters that have not been answered. You personally mischaracterized me in a comment on another gentleman's blog. You characterized my post on praying to saints as
"I am glad to see that your blog hasn't been attacked yet. I posted a short comment on praying to our guardian angels and my blog was raided by EJ who wrote an article that was abusive towards praying through angels and saints."
To the contrary, you asked me to write a post on the topic of praying to saints. This was written on 8/11/06 and you didn't read it until 10/02/2006. So to claim that I raided your blog or wrote an abusive blog entry to blow off steam, you're way off base. Please, be honest in your characterization of me and my writings.
As for the MacArthur stuff, I'll look into it, but I know that he does affirm the eternal Sonship of Christ - he may have not affirmed that before, but his theology has fallen in line with the Bible in that respect. I also know that he used to not affirm Particular Redemption, but he has grown in his understanding of the faith and affirms it.
I am happy to interact about the faith - my goal is to affirm and defend the gospel. As it stands, one longer discussion ended after I answered the silly idea that the gospel of Matthew was originally written in Hebrew/Aramaic.
EJ,
Mis... what? Wow... I was happy to celebrate such a wonderful feast day to my guardian angel, and you read my post and instead of just walking away you had to leave your two cents about how I was praying to an angel.. and that was evil... when you missed the point that I was praying through an angel (messenger) and that I was happy to acknoledge my angel for all that he does to protect me. But none the less you did raid my blog by posting a link to an article that you knew was going to make me mad. I did feel that you were looking to start something.. just as you innocently put those two posts written by Gods own prophet Mac arthur the anti-Catholic self proclaimed and self ordained preacher that thinks the world revolves around him.
So you can stop the theatricals, noone is falling for your innocent demeanor, all this anti-catholic stuff just draws hate in a person... its like drinking poison everyday.
I went looking for that post on your blog, but I couldn't find it. It was not my intention to blindside you in any way. My only motivation is to show you that the Bible is clear that we pray only to God through the power of the HOly Spirit in the name of Christ. Any method of contacting those that have died is a very, very, very evil thing.
See Ej, you still don't understand the power of prayer or even what prayer is... Jesus died... so is it evil to pray to him? But your thinking is off... I agree it is evil to contact the dead like through a method, game board, medium, or some other ungodly manner... but praying asking those that have already gone before us is not evil, it is biblical. I have shown you verse after verse... and still you do not see it, or waht to admit it.
Christ talked to Moses and Elijah... is he evil for doing so?
Since we have the ability to talk to Jesus, why would we want to communicate with anyone else (not on earth)?
And why would I ever want to pray to anyone but Him? Why are others elevated to a status of deserving prayer or having power?
Mike,
What do you do at a fellowship meeting? You pray for one another, what do you do when a friend asks you to pray for their sick sibling? You pray for that person, you ask Jesus to heal that person... so why then, can you no pray to someone who is already in heaven, and ask that person to intercede with God and help you with your problems??? You would ask a friend or family member but you wouldn't ask a true holy person??? That is wack man.
Do not mix the two. I never said there is anything wrong with asking others to pray for you, but I am not going to pray to someone other than Jesus.
Mike's got it right. It is truly wrong to compare intercessory prayer among the brethren with praying to saints or angels and sometimes asking them to pray with or for us.
Christ told us to pray to "our Father in heaven", and if we need to "pray" to communicate with anyone - it should be Him alone.
EJ-
You said "Christ told us to pray to "our Father in heaven", and if we need to "pray" to communicate with anyone - it should be Him alone. "
And then Mike said this "I never said there is anything wrong with asking others to pray for you, but I am not going to pray to someone other than Jesus."
You both just contradicted yourselves... HA! Neither of you truly understand what prayer is... Please do yourselves a favor, don't ever pray for someone else, and don't ask anyone to pray for you.. for what you are doing is wrong...
When you ask someone to say a prayer for you, your asking that person to pray for you.... what does that person say in prayer? maybe this "Dear Jesus please help EJ...ect" so what is so wrong with Asking an angel the same thing... "dear guardian angel, please pray for me"... and then the angel who is kneeling at the throne of God says " Dear jesus please heal Michael" So in reality you have at least two people who are going to hear your prayer and forward it to the proper authority.
Any logical person can see this is not idolatry, this is what prayer is all about. Since you mentioned the Our Father prayer, you Prots say an extra part that was not in the prayer that Jesus came up with.. you added something to it... at the end you like to add this verse onto it: "for the kingdom, the power, and the glory is your forever and ever" Thats Heresy! You added to the Lords Prayer... and you are telling me that I am wrong to ask an angel to ask my father who is in heaven to help me????
Your logic and argument is wack... reread what you both wrote, there is no way a logical person can believe what your saying!
And you still haven't addressed what ole' Macarthur said.. how his teachings are not in line with the Christian one ect...
Regarding MacArthur's view of the Sonship of Christ, read in his own words his account of his belief. Click here to read that article.
I do not adhere to a MacArthur system of doctrine 100% of the time (or Piper, Sprohl, Begg, Comfort, Luther, Calvin, Spurgeon, etc. All of these men I admire, respect, and gain much insight from, but I doubt that I would agree with any one of them fully on every single issue - that is the benefit of not holding adimantly to the teachings of "church fathers" as dogma. Where my conscience and a clear biblical study comes up with a conclusion that is different from these men - I can disagree). I am sure that I disagree with him on some issues, but none of the first order importance of the gospel or foundational doctrines.
Any possible text in the BIble that you would try to wrangle in order to make it state that we can and should pray to saints/angels in any capacity is done so at the torture of scripture. You cannot ignore the clear biblical precidents like when John fell down before an angel and was rebuked by him (Revelation 19:10; 22:8-11).
We are not to communicate with the dead. Period. Don't lump Christ into this convoluted mess to try and skew the picture. He breaks all the molds of what is normal for any man because He is the Man, the God Man. Pray only to Him. He is our intercessor and mediator. There is none more righteous than He.
WHen Christ told his disciples to pray in this manner, "our Father, who art in heaven..." he was not telling them that when they pray, these are the only words they could or should use, so saying something like, "you prots add words to the end, 'for yours is the kingdom...' that's heresy," is, um, completely off base. Do you know what heresy is. Is not the kingdom, power, and glory forever God's? SO, it is not heresy to tell Him that. Jesus was giving his followers a model by which to pray, for if all we said were the words over and over again to God, that would be vain repitition, which we know that God detests.
Also, lumping all protestants in one group and saying, "you prots..." does no service for your argument. Don't you dislike when all people who claim to be Catholic are lumped together especially when considering the priest on one of EJ's previous videos? It sure seems like you are full of hatred. If you are full of hatred, how can you be of God?
Doc and EJ,
You both keep argueing, but all your doing is digging your grave even deeper. As I have explained, I honestly don't think I can make this any simpler for you, asking a saint, angel, or another being that is in Gods grace to pray for you is not evil, it is good.
Now you misunderstand what the angel is doing, that man was trying to worship the angel, and the angel rebuked him for doing so. Asking an angel to pray for you and trying to worship it are two very different things.
Like I have said before, your statements only show me that you don't understand what prayer is.
I am getting sick and tired of this issue. Show me where in the Bible we see as situation where a man or woman (currently living) prays and asks a man or woman (now dead and in the presense of God) to intercede on their behalf. The word "saints" refers to all true believers who have been born again, not to some upper echalon of a Christian hierarchy, but to all believers. The New Testament uses the term in such broad measures that it would be foolish to interpret as a "higher level" of Christians.
The prayer/praise of the dead saints in heaven that are made to God are not of an intercessory nature as we see in Rev 6:10. The Martyrs are praying for God to be the avenger and to do justice, not praying that you would do good on a test or that I would get a promotion at work or that someone would find some possesion that they lost.
Your getting sick and tired of it because you cannot come up with a logical explanation for the exact usage of what prayer is and how prayer is supposed to be used.
Thats ok.. maybe this is just a learning curve that through frustration your eyes will be opened... but I doubt it... not trying to sound cynical or anything, but talking faith with you is like trying to squeeze milk from a rock.
He is not going to show you an example in the Bible, because he cannot.
Mike,
Who is not going to show who a biblical reference? If you are refering to me, I can produce as many as you want.
The basis of my argument, is that you and EJ do not understand what prayer is, nor do you know how to use the power of prayer...
No, I argue that the problem is that you, Michael do not know what prayer is. My mom can name a saint a day for whatever the issue I am having that I should pray to him or her. There is absolutely no Biblical support for praying to anyone other than Jesus. Now, we can go to our Christian brothers and sisters (or saints as the Bible calls us) and ask them to pray for us, with the obvious understanding that they will pray to God alone. We do not pray to anyone who has died, because, again, there is no Biblical support to pray to anyone who has died. You argue, "Jesus died." You miss the HUGE point that He rose to life, and He is God. If you think that arguing your point to pray to anyone in Heaven or asking for them to approach God is the same as praying through Jesus because they both died, that's not at all rational. The fact of the matter is that you have no Biblical support for your argument because there is none. If you do come up with verses, then we can talk about those issues. Let's try to keep this conversation as mature as we can since we are all adults.
Oh so you are calling me immature now? How about we just stop the name calling.
What I find crazy is that you would rather ask a sinner on earth to pray for you, than to ask a saint in heaven to pray for you.
Here are your verses, and please do not try and twist them to your wack thinking:
Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family ("Catholic") in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the "communion of saints." There cannot be a "communion" if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.
Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with "deceased" Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.
Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.
Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.
John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.
1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.
1 Cor. 12:26 - when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.
1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!
Heb. 12:1 - we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses, our family in heaven. We are not separated. The “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) refers to a great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners (us on earth), and many tiers of seats occupied by the saints (in heaven) rising up like a cloud. The “martures” are not mere spectators (“theatai”), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience to God’s promises and cheer us on in our race to heaven. They are no less than our family in heaven.
1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 - we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other.
2 Peter 1:4 - since God is the eternal family and we are His children, we are partakers of His divine nature as a united family.
1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 - we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:
Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 - in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called "saints."
Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that "saints" also refer to those in heaven who united with us.
Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.
1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul's teaching about Jesus as the "one mediator," Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?
1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ's role as mediator.
1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).
1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ's work because we are God's "fellow workers" and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe "fellow workers" is "sunergoi," which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.
Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord "worked with them" ("sunergountos"). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.
Rom. 8:28 - God "works for good with" (the Greek is "sunergei eis agathon") those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.
2 Cor. 6:1 - "working together" (the Greek is "sunergountes") with him, don't accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.
Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.
1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ's work of redemption.
Rev. 1:6, 5:10 - Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God's people.
James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.
1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.
Matt. 5:44-45 - Jesus tells us to pray for (to mediate on behalf of) those who persecute us. God instructs us to mediate.
Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.
Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints – and He obviously would not have been worshiping them in so doing – then so can we, who need their help infinitely more than Jesus, and without engaging in idolatry. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.
Matt. 27:47,49; Mark 15:35-36 – the people believe that Jesus calls on Elijah for his intercession, and waits to see if Elijah would come to save Jesus on the cross.
Matt. 27:52-53 - at Jesus' passion, many saints were raised and went into the city to appear and presumably interact with the people, just as Jesus did after His resurrection.
Mark 11:24 - Jesus says that whatever we ask in prayer, we will receive it. It is Jesus, and also we through Jesus, who mediate.
John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary's intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.
John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.
John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary's intercession that started Jesus' ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary's intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.
Acts 12:7 – an angel strikes Peter on the side and wakes him up, freeing him from prison. The angel responds to Peter’s prayers.
Rom. 15:30 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other.
2 Cor. 1:11 - Paul even suggests that the more prayers and the more people who pray, the merrier! Prayer is even more effective when united with other's prayers.
2 Cor. 9:14 - Paul says that the earthly saints pray for the Corinthians. They are subordinate mediators in Christ.
2 Cor. 13:7,9 - Paul says the elders pray that the Corinthians may do right and improve. They participate in Christ's mediation.
Gal. 6:2,10 - Paul charges us to bear one another's burdens, and to do good to all, especially those in the household of faith.
Eph. 6:18 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for each other.
Eph. 6:19 - Paul commands that the Ephesians pray for him. If there is only one mediator, why would Paul ask for their prayers?
Phil. 1:19 - Paul acknowledges power of Philippians' earthly intercession. He will be delivered by their prayers and the Holy Spirit.
Col. 1:3 - Paul says that he and the elders pray for the Colossians. They are subordinate mediators in the body of Christ.
Col. 1:9 - Paul says that he and the elders have not ceased to pray for the Colossians, and that, by interceding, they may gain wisdom.
Col. 4:4 - Paul commands the Colossians to pray for the elders of the Church so that God may open a door for the word. Why doesn't Paul just leave it up to God? Because subordinate mediation is acceptable and pleasing to God, and brings about change in the world. This is as mysterious as the Incarnation, but it is true.
1 Thess. 5:11 - Paul charges us to encourage one another and build one another up, in the body of Christ. We do this as mediators in Christ.
1 Thess. 5:17 - Paul says "pray constantly." If Jesus' role as mediator does not apply subordinately to us, why pray at all?
1 Thess. 5:25 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for the elders of the Church. He desires our subordinate mediation.
2 Thess. 1:11 - Paul tells the family of God that he prays for us. We participate in Christ's mediation because Christ desires this.
2 Thess. 3:1 - Paul asks the Thessalonians to pray for Him, Silvanus and Timothy so that they may be delivered.
1 Tim. 2:1-3 - Paul commands us to pray for all. Paul also states that these prayers are acceptable in the sight of God.
2 Tim. 1:3 – Paul says “I remember you constantly in my prayers.”
Philemon 22 - Paul is hoping through Philemon's intercession that he may be able to be with Philemon.
Heb. 1:14 – the author writes, “Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?”
Hebrews 13:18-19 - the author strongly urges the Hebrews to pray for the elders so that they act desirably in all things.
James 5:14-15- James says the prayer of the priests over the sick man will save the sick man and forgive his sins. This is a powerful example of men forgiving sins and bringing a person to salvation with the sacrament of the sick.
James 5:16 - James instructs us to confess our sins to one another and pray for one another so that we may be healed.
James 5:17-18 - James refers to God's response to Elijah's fervent prayer for no rain. He is teaching us about the effectiveness of our earthly mediation.
1 John 5:14-15 - John is confident that God will grant us anything we ask of God according to His will.
1 John 5:16-17 - our prayers for others even calls God to give life to them and keep them from sinning. Our God is a personal and living God who responds to our prayers.
3 John 2 - John prays for Gaius' health and thus acts as a subordinate mediator.
Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.
Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)
Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.
Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.
Gen. 20:17 - God responds to Abraham's intercession and heals Abimelech, and also his wife and slaves.
Gen. 27:29; Num. 24:9 - blessed be everyone who blesses you. If we bless others in prayer, we are also blessed.
Exodus 32:11-14, 30-34; 34:9; Num. 14:17-20; 21:7-9 - these are many examples of God's response to Moses' saintly intercession.
1 Sam. 12:23 - Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn't continue to intercede for the people of Israel.
1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).
1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 - Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul's practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.
2 Chron. 30:27 - the prayers of the priests and Levites came before God's holy habitation in heaven and were answered.
Tobit 12:12,15 - angels place Tobit and Sarah's prayers before the Holy One. This teaches us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God.
Job 42:7-9 - Job prayed for three friends in sin and God listened to Job as a result of these prayers.
Psalm 34:7 – the angel of the Lord delivers those who fear him.
Psalm 91:11 – God will give His angels charge of you, to guard you in all your ways.
Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2 – we praise the angels and ask for their assistance in doing God’s will.
Psalm 141:2 - David asks that his prayer be counted as incense before God. The prayers of the saints have powerful effects.
Isaiah 6:6-7 - an angel touches Isaiah's lips and declares that his sin is forgiven. The angel is a subordinate mediator of God who effects the forgiveness of sins on God’s behalf.
Jer. 7:16 - God acknowledges the people's ability to intercede, but refuses to answer due to the hardness of heart.
Jer. 15:1 – the Lord acknowledges the intercessory power of Moses and Samuel.
Jer. 37:3 - king Zedekiah sends messengers to ask Jeremiah to intercede for the people, that he might pray to God for them.
Jer. 42:1-6 - all the people of Israel went before Jeremiah asking for his intercession, that he would pray to the Lord for them.
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.
Dan. 9:20-23 - Daniel intercedes on behalf of the people of Israel confessing both his sins and the sins of the people before God.
Zech. 1:12-13 - an angel intercedes for those in Judea and God responds favorably.
2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.
Matt. 18:10 - the angels in heaven always behold the face of God. We venerate them for their great dignity and union with God.
Matt. 15:4; Luke 18:20; Eph. 6:2-3 Exodus 20:12; Lev. 19:3; Deut. 5:16 - we are instructed to honor our father and mother.
Luke 1:28 - the angel Gabriel venerates Mary by declaring to her "Hail, full of grace." The heavenly angel honors the human Mary, for her perfection of grace exceeds that of the angels.
Romans 13:7 - we are to give honor where honor is due. When we honor God's children, we honor God Himself, for He is the source of all honor.
1 Cor. 4:16 - the most important form of veneration of the saints is "imitating" the saints, as Paul commands us to do.
1 Cor. 11:1 - again, Paul says, "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ." The ultimate objective of veneration is imitation.
Phil. 2:25-29 - Paul teaches us to honor Epaprhoditus who almost died for the faith. How much more honor is owed to the saints that did die for the faith!
Phil. 3:17 - Paul says to imitate him and others, which is the goal of veneration. Veneration is not worship.
1 Thess. 1:6 – Paul says to the Thessalonians, “You became imitators of us and of the Lord.” This is the goal of veneration.
2 Thess. 3:7 - Paul says that the Thessalonians should imitate him and the other bishops.
Hebrews 3:3 - Jesus is worthy of "more" glory and honor than Moses. This does not mean that the saints are worthy of no glory and honor. Instead, it proves that saintly people are worthy of glory and honor out of God's goodness.
Heb. 6:12 – the author teaches us to be imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Heb. 13:7 - we must imitate the faith of our faithful leaders. We ask for their intercession and venerate them for their holiness.
James 5:10-11 – James teaches us to take heart in the examples of the prophets and Job, who endured suffering.
1 Peter 2:17 - Peter teaches us to honor all men, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the emperor. Don't those living with Christ in heaven deserve honor? Catholics believe they do, and honor them with special feast days, just as we honor those living by celebrating their birthdays.
Gen. 19:1 - Lot venerates the two angels in Sodom, bowing himself with his face to the ground.
Gen. 42:6 - Joseph's brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground. This is veneration, not worship.
Exodus 28:2 - it is especially important to honor religious leaders. Sacred garments for Aaron give him dignity and honor.
Lev. 19:32- we should also honor "the face of an old man." When the elderly die in Christ, we should continue honoring them, because death does not separate them from us or the love of Christ.
1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in veneration.
2 Chron. 32:33 - Hezekiah was honored at his death. We honor our brothers and sisters in the Lord.
Sir. 44:1-2 - we should praise and give honor to those who the Lord apportioned great glory. It is our family in Christ.
Now if after you read all that, you still dare to say that praying to and through saints is bad, then your lost.
I just won't even touch your hypocricy.
I have nothing to say to you at the moment. You exhaust me.
Doc,
You asked for verses, there they are and yet you cannot answer them! Your exhaustion comes from your lack of answer to a simple question, is it biblical to pray through the saints or to ask them to intercede for you?
I will let it lie here, you are not willing to answer, because you would have to admit by the above verses that indeed the bible says that we can ask those that have gone before us to intercede on our behalf.
Michael –
Do not use my blog in your plagiarizing acts. The information that you copied and pasted is copyrighted “Copyright 2001 - 2004 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved.”
You’ve done this before. Don’t do it again.
I asked a simple question: “Show me where in the Bible we see as situation where a man or woman (currently living) prays and asks a man or woman (now dead and in the presense of God) to intercede on their behalf.” You provided me with (plagiarized) material that is in no way an answer to that question. You have no example of a living person entreating another person who has already died to intercede for him. None! Instead this document (which I am loathe to comment on because of the way in which you presented it to me) uses logic like, “1 Peter 2:17 - Peter teaches us to honor all men, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the emperor. Don't those living with Christ in heaven deserve honor? Catholics believe they do, and honor them with special feast days, just as we honor those living by celebrating their birthdays.” (http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html)
Taking that passage to argue for the praying to angels (even to ask that they pray for us) is a leap because we are not commanded to in Scripture, and any contact/communication with those now in eternity is prohibited explicitly. And anywhere that we see aberrations to normalcy (the post death, non resurrected viewings of Samuel, Moses, and Elijah) are just that…they are exceptions to the rule. Samuel's appearance was not condoning this action of contacting the dead...it is just the opposite.
Don’t plagiarize on this blog again.
No, my exhaustion was a combination of your complete misunderstanding of Biblical matters and that it was midnight and I have two young children. YOur verses do absolutely nothing for your case. Did you even read the same ones that you posted. In every verse you have included, your assumption is that since this is the case (we are all one family, alive in Christ, etc.)then it must be true that we should talk to those who have died (physically) or to angels. What you have is a great list of proof texts. You said that just great when you said, this is in the apostle's creed. Can you ever leave your tradition aside and look at scripture alone. These verses give us no permission to talk to those who have gone before us, and they certainly give us no mandate to do so. Jesus did mandate, however, when we pray to pray to our Father. Show me a verse that says we are to talk to angels and those who have gone to Heaven before us. That was all I was asking for. You have not done that. You also come from the fasle premise that we become part of the family of God based on our baptism. That is not Biblical. Have I not already said that. There is no verse that says we are saved through baptism. Also, in 1 Tim, Paul is not saying that we are to have other mediators than Christ. He is mandating the church to pray for all men. Since we do not who are the elect, God has told us to pray for all men. Not, pray TO all men. This is a list of the types of prayer we should pray for all men: supplications, interecessions, thanksgiving. Supplication: prayer for the needs. Intercessions: to come intimately to God on behalf of the lost.
Thanksgiving is self-explanatory. This does not mean that we become mediators, but rather that we intercede for all men. We pray to God for all men. And, to be clear, to intercede for all men does not make me a subordinate mediator. I do not share in Christ's role as mediator. Mediator is One who goes between to restore the relationship between God and man. Only Jesus has done that and can do that. To intercede does not restore a right relationship between God and man. It means to come before God pleading (as in the case of 1 Tim) for all men to be saved. The point of 1 Cor 3:9 is that no one is more important than someone else in matters of leading others to Christ because ultimately it is God who is doing all things to lead men to repentance. Romans 8:28, "We know that God causes all thing to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose (NASB)." Or "We know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose (NKJ)." I could read other translations for you, but the message is clear: God orchestrates all events in the life of the believer to work together for the believer's ultimate good. We may suffer many things in this life, but we have assurance that God is working all events for our ultimate good and His ultimate glory. In John 2:3, Mary simply comes to Jesus and tells him that the wine is gone. This is not teaching us to pray to Mary or that she is a mediator. Again, look at Scripture alone. You seem to have knowledge (at least the ability to read the Bible), but you lack understanding--given only by the Holy Spirit alone as He indwells the truly saved.
My comments relating to the abomination of prayer to saints/angels will cease. The only basis for prayer/veneration of saints or angels is in Roman Catholic Tradition, not in scripture. Scriptural proof-texts found in light of this already held belief is the only way that one could ever try to say that the Bible teaches and condones us to do this horrible act.
Anyone who is given the word of God, told to read it, and then asked to answer whether one is to pray to saints would answer a resounding, "NO!" It may be a Catholic teaching, but it is not a biblical teaching.
EJ,
I told you were I got that from, I said I got it from Scripture Catholic. Now don't throw your crap about plagarism at me, the bible that you read from is plagarism. Plagarism is when you claim that someone elses work is your own, I never claimed that. I work at a College and I deal with student that do real plagarism, so get a dictionary and read it before you accuse me of something I am not guilty of. I find it humorous thought that you attack me on that, b/c no matter where I got the verses from, you cannot answer them, so your only defense to what I posted is that I plagarized... what a weak attack point.
My Gosh, you people are impossible! You'll never hear the true voice of Christ, becuase you are too damn hard headed to listen for it!
Stay away from my blog, and I will stay away from yours... Go and harrass someone else, for this is one Catholic that loves Christ and will do as he and his church say.
I was going to start breaking down the list of Scripture, but I will not.
I think that we all can agree on the power of prayer, and that we all at some point have asked others to pray for us.
However, i see no reason to pray to anyone but Jesus. He is the only one deserving of my prayers. I can talk to Jesus directly, and I do not need a middle-man. I can also confess my sins to him directly, and do not need a priest to be my middle-man.
Jesus died on the cross for a reason.
Michael,
The way that you speak speaks volumes of that which is in your heart...
Michael - I searched your comments to see where you attributed it to your source - I found none. IF it is there, point me to the date and time that it was noted on this interaction, and if it happened before my accusation, then I will readily and truly (and humbly) retract my statement and seek forgiveness.
Moving on - you have repeatedly shown yourself to have little restraint when it comes to your typing. Your use of course language, lying (about who posted a blasphemous comment to my blog), and hatred (admitted from you own words) is not a display of the fruits of the spirit, and it speaks loudly and in great volumes about to whom you serve. Read 1st John with a humble attitude, I beg you.
You may dislike and disagree with what I have to say and dislike my theology - but i have not been personally attacking or demeaning. I have always attempted to describe doctrines or practices as loathsome or detestable, but not the person or their motivation for doing so.
“Stay away from my blog, and I will stay away from yours... Go and harrass someone else” I have not commented on your blog except to attempt to get you to read the article that you requested for me to write. I will (and have) gladly avoid the information there. It is you who “invaded” this blog and harassed me with your unfounded and biased attacks against Dr. MacArthur. An interesting question comes to mind to that I was going to let alone: do you believe the various people who you copied and pasted from (3 different times in this one article) specifically from your 10/10/2006 08:26:30 PM comment? I truly want to know. Do you? You must, since you copied a wealth of information with no comments. You also must know that by this same author’s standpoint the Pope is a false teacher and Catholicism leads people to hell (http://www.atruechurch.info/catholicism.html).
I am anxiously waiting for you to show me where you said that you obtained your scriptural evidence from “Scripture Catholic” prior to 10/12/06 on this post.
EJ,
You are right, I did lie about the comment I made about the trinity, but I talked to a good priest and he said that wasn't blasphemy. I know that you differ on that and you think I am going to hell, but it was a crude joke, towards your saintly Mac arthur that as I have shown has teachings contrary to the Christian one. That doesn't seem to bother you, after all he is already saved and you obviously believe that what the man says in infallible and you and your zealots go off to do your own thing.
And yes, I read the truechurch site, and I know what they think of Catholics. I feel what I did was right by qouting from that site. If you want I can contact the people from the sites I copied form and let them come here to your blog to defend the work that you spit upon. I already have permission from one site to use their information, and I am sure that these two authors wouldn't mind me using their stuff the blast ignorant Prots.
Doc,
U want to know what I really think? You want to know what my heart says... it says this... Bring back the Inquisition... lets take back the world that the Protestants ruined, lets get payment for the 150 incorruptibles saints that were burned and destroyed during the Protestant (de)formation, lets get just payment for the hundreds of thousands of Catholics that were killed during the (de)formation.
Heretics need to be taught a lesson in life, so lets bring back that glorious time, when instead of suing people or charging them with hate crimes against religion, they were accused, tried, and judged in one sitting and then met their just punishment for their heretical ways.
Yes Doc, Jeff, and EJ... lets bring back the Inquisition!
I wonder what level of Hell old Martin Luther is rotting on? Or maybe he actually made it to purgatory and maybe even heaven... since he did receive the last rites before he died... I hope he had a sincere confession...
Oh and by the way, just to clear a few things up, since you all are obviously out of arguments and cannot come up with any logical explanation of the above verses about praying through saints and angels in heaven... most of the time, this is when you all fall back on the Priestly abuse claims.. ect.. Lets just see here, less than 3% of priests have been accused, and less than that were actually found guilty.
As for the Prots, your no better, go here to look at your numbers, but you never hear about this in the news, its only about the Catholics... I wonder WHY?
http://www.reformation.com/
Oh and Mike... you do need a Priest to forgive your sins, for a Priest that does that, does it through the power of the Father, as you can easily read in the bible, Jesus gives the power to forgive sins to his apostles, and says "whos sins you retain will be retained in heaven, whos sins you forgive, shall be forgiven in heaven..." Are you really so bold as to think Jesus was cracking a joke or something?
VADE RETRO SATANA! IPSE VENENA BIBAS!
It doesn't matter where Michael got the info from. It's still the Truth. Don't try to avoid the fact that you are wrong by just brushing him off.
The Catholic Church is the Fullness of the faith. Protestants have watered it down so much they fight amongst themselves over what Christianity is. Good job!
Both of you missed my exact question. I asked for a specific example where we are exhorted to do this or where it is modeled for us. Where a living person prays to a person who has died and is in heaven for any reason. I looked through the verses that he gave me, and they weren't there.
I agree that it doesn't ultimately matter where he got them from, but the problem is that his information didn't answer my question, and neither has your statement.
The only way to "see" praying to saints/angels in the Bible is to go looking to read that into the texts. I stand on my previous statement - if you or I were to give someone who knew nothing of Christianity a copy of the Bible and after they had read it through and studied it and then we asked them if praying to those who had died and gone to heaven was condoned or encouraged, the answer would be no. Because you cannot get to that conclusion without starting off looking for that conclusion.
Danny - it is funny how you will pile on with Michael but ignore my many genuine comments, questions, or objections. Why don't you answer a few of the questions or comments that I have (in good faith) left for you? Perhaps you're just trying "to avoid the fact that you are wrong by just brushing [me] off."
Did someone actually fall back on priestly abuse claims when trying to discuss if praying to saints or angels is actually in the Bible? I must have missed something. I know someone who was molested by a priest, and he has been scarred for life. How sad that that should happen to anyone no matter who is doing it.
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